Alcohol is not only harmful but also healthy

My goal was to get drunk, I would also be counting carbs.

But, good on you for thinking about it. Adam: Good on you. Exactly. So there's some ways in which there's a really straightforward answer to this question and there's some less straightforward. What's the opposite of a straightforward answer?

I don't know if you know, you probably don't listen to this program. Lauren: Stay tuned for part two of our Midnight's. Conversation. Adam: She's a Swiftie, 40 year old Swiftie. Say it. Lauren: First of all, I'm 39. Adam: Okay. Oh, how many years are you going to be 39? Lauren: Well, for two more months.

Adam: Two more months. Lauren: One more month in a week. Adam: All right, there you go.

So for 0.2 years.

Okay. All right. So yes, Mitchell, if you are trying to get a little buzz on and do that in the healthiest way possible, and from the way that you describe, it sounds like healthy to you means trying to minimize calories, glycemic load, all that kind of stuff, which makes sense. I think for most of us living in the developed world, that's one of the things that we need to consider to try to live healthfully is to just eat fewer calories.

Lauren: We won't ask your liver what it thinks what healthy is. Adam: We'll get back to the liver in a second, but let's just kind of focus on calories. Okay? So, first we have to remember that alcohol itself has calories. Alcohol, the scientists generally figure has seven calories per gram, which is considerably more actually than proteins and carbs, which is usually four calories per gram, and a little less than fats, which are generally nine calories per gram. It kind of makes sense because ethanol is actually really similar molecularly to fat, which is one of the reasons why alcohol can dissolve fat and the other way around in ways that water can't. It's whole thing we can go down there, but anywho. We're unscripted today, by the way. 

And people say that they really liked them and a lot of people wrote in to say that they preferred that to when I speak from highly prepared notes, which is what I'm much more comfortable doing. And I don't like to listen to myself talk this way. Lauren: But this is going to be really interesting because Adam knows all the science and I don't, so-. Adam: I have done research, I'm prepared. This is not just going to be a thing where we're just gabbing. I've prepared my answers here. 

We'll try to avoid that. Hey buddy. Lauren: What's up? child: I'm coming down. Adam: No, you can not come down right now. Lauren: When we're done, you can come down and play. Okay? child: Okay. Lauren: All right. So wait upstairs until we're done.

Okay? child: Okay. Lauren: Thanks, buddy. Adam: So, alcohol itself is an energy source, which is why you can run a car on it, right? It has calories. Now, whether those calories are actually metabolized by your body as energy is kind of an interesting and somewhat open scientific question. To a certain extent, they definitely are, but apparently not everybody is equally able to metabolize ethanol calories as energy, and thereby eventually potentially fat storage.

I was just talking to a scientist

The other day who happened to be of east asian descent, and he was mentioning how asians are kind of known for when they drink, smelling a lot of alcohol.

And that's an indication that there's some

Gene in that gene pool that makes it less easy for the bodies of people of east asian descent to metabolize booze into energy.

And so it ends up coming out in other ways.

You breathe it out, excrete it out of their skin. Maybe not the ethanol itself, but kind of closely related things that metabolites of it, all kinds of things. So it's not a thing that is fully explored by science yet. We don't actually know exactly how many of the grams of alcohol that you consume end up converting into calories of energy and then potentially eventually adipose tissue storage. If you don't use all of that energy in your very, very busy physically active night of drinking, right? Lauren: If you're on the dance floor, it's going to be good for you. Adam: Yeah, exactly. That's right. Gosh, I remember this funny thing because alcohol is arguably the original performance enhancing drug.

Lauren: Well yeah, don't the guys on the Tour de France, they drink beers at night? Adam: They do. And they do that more for carbo loading, which is something that was came to be understood in the mid 20th century, carbo loading. But early 20th century, in the very beginning of the Tour de France, the cyclist would drink alcohol because the alcohol A, dulls the burn in your legs, it dulls the pain. And B, it is a highly concentrated energy source. And I remember one time when we lived in Indiana, I don't know, this may have been before I met you. Lauren: In the dark ages. Adam: In the dark ages, Yes. I went drinking, where was that place where we used to do karaoke, that dive bar outside of town? Lauren: The Office Lounge.

Adam: The Office Lounge. Lauren: Yep. Adam: Wow. That place was a dump. Lauren: No, it was great. And also-. Adam: It was a great dump. Yeah.

Lauren: We went there right before our wedding with some friends and you got up to do karaoke and I had never seen you do karaoke before, so I didn't know how good you were. Adam: Oh. Lauren: Yeah. And he got to the mic and he said, "This one goes out to that goal right there, who's going to marry me in ". However many days. And then you launched into Neil Diamond's Love on the Rocks. Adam: It's a good song. Lauren: And you performed it well.

Adam: Oh, thank you.

Well anyway, this is, I think before

We met and i had a lovely evening of libations at the office lounge and i was pretty toasted and i needed to ride my bicycle back to my apartment, which was just a tremendously inappropriate thing to do.

Right? Like the drunk-. Lauren: Isn't it illegal? Adam: Well, yeah, sure. Lauren: Potentially? Adam: Drunk riding is just as bad as drunk driving. Don't do it. I don't endorse. I don't feel proud of this moment in my life.

But I needed to ride my bicycle home and in order to get home, you go up this really, really big hill on, was that Third Street by the mall? Lauren: Mm-hmm. Adam: Right? This really long, long, long big hall, climb to get home and I just remember flying up that hill. I was like, "Wow, this is amazing. I could go for five more miles up this hill. I feel absolutely nothing in my legs. It's great.". Lauren: Yikes. Adam: So anyway, drinking healthfully.

So you have to consider the calories of the alcohol itself when you're trying to work out this equation. But then we got to think about, I suppose, actually I don't even know why I discussed that just now, because you're going to have the alcohol no matter what. The alcohol is the point, right? Lauren: Yeah. He's asking if should he have liquor or beer? Adam: Liquor, or beer-. Lauren: Or wine? Adam: Or wine? Okay. Never mix. Never worry. That's actually not true.

But anyways, so wine is a pretty standard product unless you get one of these new diet wines, athletic wines, which whatever. Lauren: Why would you do that? Adam: Why would you do that to yourself? Yeah, so wine is generally going to be at 120 calories for a standard glass. Okay. Beer, I really can't tell you because beer is a far more variable product, especially in aspects that would affect its caloric contents. You're talking about anything from maybe 50 calories in a Bud Light or something like that, all the way up to maybe 300 calories in some like a-. Lauren: Guinness or something? Adam: Yeah, like a Guinness. A Scottish style or Irish style stout. That's really, really-.

Lauren: For a moment there, all of Ireland reared up when you referred to Guinness as a Scottish beer. Adam: Yes, I know. I know.

I understand but the thing is, the

Scots have similar beer style.

Lauren: Yes, Scottish ales.

Adam: Which is, yeah. Lauren: Very thick. Adam: Exactly.

Very thick. Yeah, like the ones that are almost like drinking oatmeal. Lauren: Or eating a loaf of bread. Adam: Yeah, yeah. Right? You're talking about a whole lot of extra just carbs in there. Whether those carbs occur as starch or sugar doesn't really matter that much. So don't worry about that. Don't be thinking like, "Oh this beer is sweet, therefore it's really going to hit my blood sugar.

And that's bad.". I have bad news for you, which is that starch is really just as bad as sugar. Because starch is so readily broken down into glucose by your body. Its glycemic index is virtually identical. So it doesn't really matter. What matters, if it feels thick and bready and it's somewhere between a drink and a porridge, that's a lot of calories in that beer. And I love beers like that in the winter time. But you know, don't want to hit those too hard.

So, the other thing to consider maybe is that wine is arguably healthy in a way that beer is not, which is the antioxidants, right? Lauren: It's good for your heart. Adam: Yes. Like that dad who's like, "I have one glass of red wine with dinner every night for the antioxidants.". For the antioxidants, sure. For the antioxidants, Dad. Not to make the rest of us tolerable. Lauren: That's bleak. Adam: Sorry.

But it's true. That's actually a documented thing. Red wine in particular, it's the stuff that makes it purple is what is an antioxidant. And oh boy, we have to do a whole episode about whether or not antioxidants are actually good for you because that's not a totally scientifically settled topic, but it's generally presumed that antioxidants are probably good for you and red wine has them. Whereas, I can't think of anything that's really redeeming in a glass of beer. There might be some things in the hops that could be good for you. I've actually, I bet there are antioxidants in hops come to think of it.

So I take this back, this requires

Further investigation.

Lauren: But it seems like you should just take all of this and set it aside. And if the goal is to get drunk quickly with no calories or low calories, I mean take a page out of the college freshman handbook and just drink Everclear. Adam: Well, Everclear is not legal in every state in the United States. Lauren: Is that true? Adam: That's true. And I don't know if it's, it wasn't legal in Georgia. Lauren: Really? Adam: And I don't, yeah-. Lauren: It was legal in Indiana. Adam: Yeah.

Lauren: Grain alcohol. Adam: It's 190 proof, I believe it is. So that means it's 95% ethanol, 5% water. For really complex chemical reasons, you can never get all of the water out of ethanol. But this is just about all of the water out as you can get. And it is just, wow. Lauren: And it's cheap and disgusting. Adam: Well, you can mix it with things that taste good or Lauren: Big trash cans full of red fruit punch.

Ask me how I know. Adam: Oh, I'm sure they were really glad to see you show up at that party, honey. Lauren: Only one time. One time. Adam: So, well, I think there's another, there's a better lesson that Mitchell could draw from the collegiate experience. Right? Okay. Which is that of pre-gaming. Okay.

Lauren: Oh, pre-game calories don't matter? They don't count? Adam: No.

So rather than pre-game, so pre-gaming so

In the collegiate environment generally refers to drinking alcohol at home because you can buy alcohol more cheaply retail than you can at a bar.

So, you have a few drinks that

You bought more cheaply from a liquor store at home, and then you go out to the bar to socialize where drinks are a lot more expensive.

But you don't need to buy as many drinks there because you've already gotten your evening started. So when I say pre-game now, what I mean is drink before you eat. Okay? Oh, drink before you eat. Mitchell, like you, I'm a bigger guy. I weigh 200 pounds and I'm somewhat desensitized to alcohol at this point.

And when we have wine with dinner, for me to feel anything, I have to drink the entire content of the bottle that you don't drink. Lauren: And I drink a glass. Adam: She's little, she's a bird. She's a little baby bird. Lauren: Aw. Adam: And so for me to get anything at all, I have to drink the rest of the bottle if we're having it with dinner. But if I drink before dinner, then one strong drink is enough for me to have a very pleasant buzz on. Super, super nice, does not And it's great.

Why? Because intoxication happens when your body is not able to metabolize the alcohol fast enough. A normal adult male is typically able to metabolize, what is it? 10 grams of alcohol an hour, something like that. Basically, the amount that is in a drink, one kind of standard drink, one ounce of liquor is how they would define it in the United States. And that's part of the reason that it's sort of calibrated like that is because that's the amount that your body can handle in a given hour. With all else being equal, your body can kind of break it down and eliminate it and that's fine. It's when you start to exceed that rate that the alcohol backs up in your system and goes up into your brain and does a whole bunch of really funny stuff up there. So, when you dilute the alcohol in a bunch of food in your stomach, what you're doing is you're basically slowing the rate at which it's actually going to be absorbed into your system. And this is when pet ants in the comments will point out that alcohol actually can be absorbed somewhat directly through the lining of your stomach.

But that's not the whole story. It's absorbed in lots of places down through the whole system. And yeah, if you have the alcohol with food, if you dilute it with a bunch of food, you're just going to slow that whole process down and you're not going to get intoxicated. So if your goal is intoxication, which it is Mitchell, and your goal is to do that in as few calories as possible, yes, I would suggest drinking hard liquor. My drink of choice these days is Scotch and soda and plain soda water, no sugar in it at all. And all of the Scotch drinkers are horrified right now because I'm diluting their glorious product. But I really enjoy the taste of it and I like to sort of sip actively. And if I sip actively on straight Scotch Lauren: It would be a problem.

Adam: It would be a problem around the house. Just weird things would start happening. Lauren: I feel like this whole segment needs a trigger warning because the conclusion we've come to is like, "Hey, drink Everclear on an empty stomach that's good for you.". And it's not. Adam: I feel like, I think our audience is smart enough and that they can handle it.

All right.

Lauren: Or I hope that if people who maybe are not alcohol drinkers for whatever reason, understand that this is a specific instance and you can just fast forward. Adam: Yeah.

Well I think we got into it slowly enough that that was-. Lauren: Okay, okay. Adam: You don't have to say trigger warning for it to be a trigger warning. We made it very clear at many steps. All right. So anyways, so I would suggest drinking hard liquor with zero cal mix ins and do that before you eat and you will need way less of it and in order to get the psychological effects that you so desire. That is, I'm sure, the correct answer from a biochemistry standpoint. I don't know if that's the correct answer from a psychology standpoint or human behavior standpoint.

And this is the problem that a mistake that scientists make frequently is that stay within their little silo and they figure out an answer that is correct within the confines of their field, but they forget that the universe is not limited to their field. Right? So, what I mean in this case is that if you follow my advice, if you drink before you eat, might the sort of knock on effect of that be that you walk into dinner totally disinhibited. Lauren: You eat a ton and order more drinks. Adam: Right. Exactly. Yeah. Lauren: But can I also say that I feel like if you're reaching intoxication in appropriate amount over the span of say your week or your month in a way that won't be detrimental to your health overall. You know, you're like, "It's the weekend and I'm going to have a fun night.".

Then have your fun night and drink what you want to drink and have a good time and just know that I'm going to have a good time and when I, later on in the week, I'm just going to eat a little better. But an extra drink is not going to hurt you. Well, I mean-. Adam: It might. Lauren: Caveat, but Adam: That's my best advice on how to drink smartly.

And we now need to consider the arguably flawed premise implicit in Mitch from Canada's question. He presumes that alcohol is bad for you and that might not necessarily be true. Have you heard, honey, about the studies that say that light drinkers live longer? Lauren: No. I have heard that drinking red wine is good for your heart. Basically, I've heard there's a study that says everything helps you live longer, so Adam: And that everything will kill you. Lauren: Coffee drinkers live longer, but also they die quicker. Adam: No, actually that one's pretty consistent. Coffee drinkers live longer.

Lauren: Did you see the new study that said that, sorry, digression. The new study that said, they've discovered that the information that caffeinated beverages are not hydrating is flawed. Adam: Yes, that is true. Lauren: Which explains how I made it all through college drinking only fountain sodas from the dining hall and I didn't die. I was hydrated. It was fine. Adam: It's a little more complicated than that, but yes. Lauren: As all things are.

Adam: Sure. Exactly. Lauren: But I was excited. Adam: Alcohol on the other hand is definitely a diuretic. So, keep that in mind. But it is true, 100% true that there are many, many, many studies that show that light drinkers, or sometimes they might be called social drinkers, live longer than every other group of people, meaning they live a little longer than people who don't drink at all, abstainers, which is the kind of weird part.

And then there's the totally predictable part, which is that light drinkers live longer than heavy drinkers. Right? Lauren: Yikes.

Adam: Because if you And light is usually in these studies considered to be about a drink a day on average, maybe a drink or two a day on average. And let's go ahead and clarify that that doesn't mean drinking one glass of alcohol a day. That could mean drinking three to four drinks twice a week.

Lauren: One day a week.

Oh, that's a lot. Adam: Well, three to four on one day and then four on one day, three on the other day. And that's seven. Lauren: Okay.

Adam: You can do that twice a week. Right? Lauren: Huh, okay. Adam: Which it sounds like that's the kind of thing. Mitch in Canada likes to do. It's the kind thing I like to do. I mean, that's generally how I handle it. So yeah, lots of studies find that those people tend to live longer than everyone else. Once you go above that point, and once you start talking about an average of three or four drinks a day, chance of cardiovascular disease increases significantly, like a lot.

And then once you go way past that, then that's when you start melting your liver. Lauren: Yikes. Adam: Which, or gastric cancer is another one. When very heavy drinkers, all kinds of, gosh, really bad things happen to you when you're an extremely heavy drinker, but-. Lauren: You're not supposed to pickle your insides. Adam: No. No, no, no. I mean, it's funny that you mentioned that because that's kind of one of the reasons why alcohol is really bad for you.

It disrupts cell membranes, it causes cell death and that's what makes alcohol so good for preserving food. Right? Because it'll kill bacteria and such. But it will also do that to your insides. In concentration and quantity and with enough repetition. So, a lot of alcohol is definitely bad for you. What's weird is the finding that light drinkers tend to live a little longer than abstainers. And that's not just one study. That's like study, after study, after study, after study finds that to be the case.

So why might that be true? No one knows, but there are hypotheses. Do you have a guess? Lauren: Maybe because a little bit of alcohol destroys some of the bad stuff that's in your body? Adam: Oh wow. I wasn't expecting that one. Lauren: Oh. Adam: Yeah.

That's like when President Trump said that

We could kill covid by injecting clorox bleach into our veins.

Lauren: Okay.

It's not the same at all.

It's not the, no. I don't know. Because everyone's always talking about your microbiome and your gut health and maybe you got some bad bugs in your tummy and you have some alcohol and it cleans some of it out. Adam: That's not a terrible thought. And I kind of-. Lauren: Call me, science. Adam: Well that's a thing, I wonder if that actually maybe true in diets in less developed countries, right? Lauren: Oh, where food contamination might be a little higher? Adam: Yeah. Is a bigger problem.

And I'm not aware of any research that has looked at that specifically. So graduate student out there, there's another free idea for you. Lauren: This is why scientists should talk to non-science people because sometimes we think outside the box. Adam: So far outside the box. Lauren: I was a history major, I know nothing about science. So what is the reason then? Adam: No one knows, but here are some potentials. All right. Lauren: Okay.

Adam: So one, is that people who are social drinkers are social and that when you do the kinds of things that people who have friends do, that's an indication that you have friends and having friends is really good for your health. Lauren: That's right. Adam: Being married is good for your health or being in committed long term relationships is good fear health because it provides a social structure that pushes you to do things that are good for you like go to the doctor. Lauren: Sure. Get out of the house. Adam: Yeah. Lauren: Breathe fresh air. Adam: Move around, do things, yeah.

And not be depressed and alone. Lauren: That's interesting. Adam: Yeah. Lauren: That's definitely a roundabout way of thinking of it. Me, I went straight for the, let's nuke all the bacteria in your tummy. But-. Adam: Well, because you were just try looking for a causal link. Lauren: Ah.

Adam: But not all correlation is causation.

Lauren: Correct.

Yes. Adam: So in this case, if that's true, then what that means is that alcohol probably actually is bad for you in any amount. It's just that it's not as bad for you, like one drink a day on average is not as bad for you as having no social life is bad for you. Lauren: I would like to state here for the record that I am skeptical that drinkers automatically have better social lives than non-drinkers. Adam: Well no, of course not. Lauren: Especially, if you think of all the abstainers who abstain for religious reasons and are part of a huge religious community.

Adam: Sure. Lauren: So, I don't know if I buy that, but interesting. Adam: Yes. But A, remember we're talking in aggregate, we're not talking about individuals. B, it's also important to remember that most of these studies, just like most studies are of Westerners because that's where the money is. And therefore that's where the science is. Most medical science, most all of science is done in the West, secondarily in East Asia, which is in a number of ways, the same place these days. There's not as much science that comes from, say, the Islamic world.

It's coming up for sure. It's coming, but it's not there yet. And one thing that's interesting about the Islamic world in particular, is that there you have a place where alcohol is very much religiously and culturally forbidden. But most cultures that forbid alcohol, they do allow another drug. There is a drug that is 100% socially accepted across the Islamic world. And that is Lauren: Opium? I don't know. Adam: Oh, my gosh. Lauren: I don't know.

I guessed. Adam: Caffeine, baby. Lauren: Oh. Adam: Yeah. Think about all the teeth. Think about like-. Lauren: Oh yeah. Adam: Pakistanis and their teeth.

Think about the Turks and their coffee. They're freaking like motor oil sludge of coffee. Yeah.

Yeah, no.

They can't drink-.

Lauren: Opium. Adam: Nice. They can't drink booze.

Lauren: Sorry. Adam: So they drink tons and tons of caffeine and don't kid yourself, caffeine is a psychoactive drug. Lauren: Well, so I was thinking about Mormons in the. US. Adam: As one does. Lauren: Well, because they don't do alcohol or caffeine. Adam: Or caffeine, they're the weird one in this way. Yeah.

Lauren: But they do tons and tons of sugar. Adam: Sugar. Yes. So, this is another theory or hypothesis rather as to why social drinkers might seem to live longer, at least in studies done in the West, is that those people in the west who do not drink alcohol might have, where alcohol is totally tolerated and it's not just tolerated, it's part of our-. Lauren: Like Italy. Adam: Yeah, yeah. It's part of our religion, our secular religion, and even our religion, religion in the case of Catholicism, right? Lauren: Our social, cultural fabric. Adam: Yeah.

Exactly. That's right. So if you're looking at studies done in the West and a person is totally abstaining from alcohol, that's an indication that they might actually have some other vice that they do instead. And one of those vices might be sugar. So, for people outside of the United States who not are not familiar with Mormonism, Mormonism is this absolutely fascinating Christianity branch that found itself in this kind of apostate status in the United States in the 19th century. And a lot of them fled out west to the great American West, Utah most centrally, which was hardly populated at all at the time, even by indigenous people. I mean there were some indigenous people, but not a lot. And so they've been able to maintain this really, really interesting and really kind of coherent subculture out there for decade, after decade, after decade.

And that includes abstaining from not only alcohol and drugs, but also caffeine. And so in Mormon communities, what you have is this unbelievable sugar culture. Lauren: Soda If you go out to Salt Lake or Provo, soda shops, like literal soda shops where you can get sodas that are mixed with coconut cream or heavy cream, or they make all these different caffeine-free sodas and then crumble cookies, those giant, huge sugar bombs. Yeah. Adam: I look at these Mormon sodas and milkshakes and stuff, and I just have to go to the bathroom. I'm like, how does this not completely wreck you? So, maybe some of the people who are abstaining die sooner because they're eating a horrible diet in order to get their ya-ya's because they can't get them through caffeine or alcohol, in the case of Mormons. The problem with that hypothesis is that, I don't know if you've ever been to Utah or.

Colorado or places where there's lots of

Mormons, you're talking about these are the fittest places in the united states, right? really, really fit lean people, the mormons generally are.

And so yeah, that probably ain't it. Here's another thing that it might be. Okay. It's called the abstainer bias and this is something that was only relatively recently-. Lauren: Can I guess what this is? Adam: Go ahead. Lauren: Okay. So the abstainer bias is where somebody who abstains I lost it. I had it and was Adam: Oh.

Lauren: Oh, dammit. Adam: Oh. Lauren: It was right there. Adam: So close. Lauren: Is this, is it about self-reporting? The bias of self-reporting? Adam: No. Lauren: Okay. Okay. Adam: What's a reason somebody might fully abstain from alcohol? We've talked about religion.

What's another one? Lauren: Because they had a problem with alcohol and now they abstain completely. Adam: Nailed it. Lauren: Okay. All right. Adam: See. She's a smartie. She's a smartie, this one. Yes, yes.

When researchers ask you whether or not you drink alcohol, a lot of the people who say absolutely no, not one drop, not at all, are people who don't drink at all because they had a really big problem with it earlier in their lives. And those decades of heavy drinking that led them to abstain did permanent damage to their body that is going to shorten their lifespan. Lauren: It's the same reason why when you go to the doctor, they ask if you've ever smoked. Not if you do smoke. Adam: Do, smoke. Exactly. Exactly. And when I was reading through the scientific literature on this, that particular abstainer bias was only relatively recently identified.

And now newer studies on that topic are taking it into account.

Lauren: All right, so they're sorting out-.

Adam: Yeah.

Lauren: Are you an alcoholic in recovery? Adam: Exactly. Lauren: Okay. Push you over there. Adam: Precisely. Lauren: And we'll just look at the Mormons.

Adam: Yep, so there you go then. And then, so there's some other hypotheses like mild drinking, can actually have positive psychological effects, can help you manage stress and enjoy life a little bit more. And that's all correlated with living longer. But in general, people don't know. People don't know. That said, no amount of drinking or not drinking will allow you to live forever. We're all getting older all the time. Me especially, it feels like.

Lauren: We're the same age. Adam: I'm a little older. Lauren: We were born in the same year. Adam: I am increasingly aware that I'm no longer a kid within my extended family. I have become one of the patriarchs, which is terrifying. I'm now one of the people in charge within the family. My folks are, they're leaning back into their retirement. God bless them.

They cannot be the keeper of the family knowledge and lore and genealogy forever. That's going to fall to me soon.

You had lots of Catholic V, Protestant wars and other things happening there and people would want to flee. And a lot of people from the Rhineland came to America around then. Lots of them became known as the Pennsylvania Dutch who invented a bunch of tasty food. Speaking of which, honey, time out on the ad for a second here. I mentioned Pennsylvania Dutch once and all of the Germans in the comments freaked out because they thought that I was making a mistake. Because they were like, "Ha, ha. He's saying Dutch. He means Deutsche.".

Lauren: Oh. Adam: Because Dutch is a person from the Netherlands in modern language. Lauren: Yes. Adam: Whereas Deutsche means German and they all were calling me a roob. But here, oh, oh Lauren: The American was right! Adam: The American was Yes. It's in this context, Dutch is an Anglicization of Deutsche and there is this deeply rooted, amazing culture in Pennsylvania, and it actually goes into Ohio, which is where my mom's side of the family is from, of people who call themselves Pennsylvania Dutch and they are. German, they are Deutsche. Just the word Deutsche became Dutch in this context.

Now speaking of Germany Mai: Hi, Adam.

This is Mai coming from Germany. The question I have for you is about veganism. It's actually about food supplements. I have been living vegan for about three years now. Great soup. You should try it out. And I've been supplementing since the very beginning of it all because I know that it is important and I did my research and I know that I should.

The question I have for you is it biologically the same if I supplement with, for example, all my B vitamins and if I intake them with food, does it change anything? And if it doesn't change anything, wouldn't a vegan diet with supplements not be equal, if not better, because I think if I take my supplement pill every day, I probably have better intake of vitamins than a person that does not supplement and eat, for example, eggs and meat? If you could shed some light on that, I'd be very grateful.

Adam: Okay, Mai. Lauren: First of all, I want to say I love your style, the vibe. Adam: Oh, yeah. Lauren: The vibe is amazing. Fantastic. Adam: Vibe is killing it. For people who are only listening to the podcast here, you're missing Mai's vibe.

Lauren: You should go queue up just to check it out. Adam: Yes. And that way I'll get two hits out of your viewership and we appreciate that. So, the particular nutrient deficiencies that you worry about with veganism are, as you say Mai, mostly B vitamins. In which case, based upon all the research that I've looked at, it doesn't matter so much whether you're supplementing your B vitamins with food or not. The reason they're called B vitamins historically, is that they, in the early days of research on this, in the late 19th, early 20th centuries when people were first identifying vitamins, there was a two totally kind of different paths of research. One, was into the water soluble vitamins and one was into the fat soluble vitamins and the fat soluble vitamins, which is the first one that they discovered was vitamin A, which is why it's called A, and that one dissolves in fat can only be digested in the presence of fat. You have to have food, you have to have some fat with your A vitamins and your D vitamins and your E and your K in order to actually absorb those into your system.

The reason that the B vitamins are under their own heading called B and a B vitamin is not one thing. It's like, what? Twelve now. Totally different things. But what they have in common is that they're all water soluble. And so if you drink a pill with water, in theory, you should be able to break that pill down and your body should be able to absorb it in the presence of water in your intestine and you're going to be just fine. So in that sense, it probably doesn't matter when you take your B vitamin pill, assuming you're taking a pill. Vegans might also just be deficient in protein. Probably not deficient in terms of are you getting your essential amino acids, such that you don't get a nutritional disease? But this is one of the things that's always frustrated me, honey, whenever anyone asks me about nutrition stuff is that they'll come in and they'll be like, "Oh ha, ha, ha ".

Vegans actually, certain vegans love to say this and be like, "You don't need nearly as much protein as you think you do.". Lauren: Well to survive or to thrive? Adam: To thrive. And by thrive, of course, I mean-.

Lauren: Build muscle.

Adam: Look jacked, right? Which as we all know is what life is all about. Right? Lauren: If you want an absolute dump truck, wasn't it one gram of protein per pound of body weight? Adam: Per pound of lean body weight. Lauren: How are you supposed to know which body weight is lean? Adam: Calipers? Lauren: Sure. Adam: It's not a really dignified process.

Lauren: No, thank you. Adam: Well, yeah. Okay. Hey, so if I can promote something, there is a collab, a very exciting collab coming on the podcast, which is one of the reasons I'm traveling to Michigan next week where we will be going deep with a certain fella, calls himself a doctor. But anyways, yes, you don't need that many essential amino acids in order to not die or get a nutritional disease. But you do need a lot of protein if you want to be strong and active in all of that kind of stuff. Lauren: Is that why there aren't too many vegan bodybuilders? Adam: Yeah, probably.

Lauren: There's maybe some. Adam: Maybe some, right? Lauren: Can I ask a fat soluble vitamin question? Adam: Sure. Lauren: Okay. So when they say with your D vitamins, you're supposed to take it with food-. Adam: Yes. Lauren: So that it absorbs? What are we talking about here? Like a full meal? Can I just have a little bite of something and take my D vitamin? Also, keep in mind that I'm a child and I have gummy D vitamins. Adam: Oh, gummies. Wow.

Well, the vegans aren't going to like that. Lauren: No. Adam: Gelatin. Lauren: No, they're not vegan. Adam: Although actually, well, no, you can get vegan vitamins that are made with agar-agar. Lauren: Yes. Adam: Call me Agar. Lauren: These are not.

These are delicious like candy. So, how much Can I have a snack? Can I have a bite of something? Do I need to eat them with a meal? Adam: So I don't know. Lauren: Great. Adam: I know that there are supplement makers that. I think do good evidence based work in their field, which is why I have worked with some of them in the past, who will give you vitamin D supplements that come in the form of pills that also have omega fatty acids in them, which you need anyway.

And then that also facilitates the absorption

Of the vitamin d or a tincture.

Sometimes it'll be sold as by companies

That are not stupid and are actually thinking about bioavailability.

So, probably not a whole lot.

Definitely don't use this as an excuse to eat a whole basket of french fries. Right? Lauren: I guess what I'm asking is if I snag a french fry off the kid's plate and then eat my Adam: I would guess that's not quite enough. Lauren: Okay. All right. Adam: But that's just a guess. Lauren: But eat like a Snickers bar and then? Adam: Yes, a Snickers bar will definitely do it. Yes. Lauren: What about a Fun Size Snickers bar? Adam: I would guess a Fun Size Snicker would probably do it.

Yes. Lauren: All right. That I'm adding that to my daily vitamin. Thank you. Adam: You do you, honey.

Probably a good time to emphasize for anyone who's new to the program that I am not a doctor. Lauren: Not a doctor. Adam: Not a doctor or a scientist of any kind. I am a nerd who eats and reads a lot. Anywho. So we talked about creatine supplementation and it's sort of this good thing if you're trying to be stronger. There's really almost no downside to it for most people. And in researching that, I discovered something that I did not know previously, but it's very well documented, which is that if you look at muscle creatine levels in non meat eaters, so that'll include people who eat dairy, by the way.

You're not going to get much creatine out of dairy. So, just vegetarians. People who don't eat animal flesh. If you look at the creatine level in their muscle and compare it to a meat eater, the difference between the meat eater and the non-meat eater is about the same as a creatine supplementer and a non-creatine supplementer who otherwise eats meat. Which is to say, it's not a huge difference, but it's a difference big enough to absolutely notice in the gym. When I first started supplementing creatine, I was like, "Holy crap! All of a sudden I'm 20% stronger.". It was amazing.I also think that I probably responded to creatine more than the average person does.And so it was just great for me. So, all of this is to say that if you're a vegan, then yes, I think it might make sense to supplement creatine and protein, also, if you're trying to be stronger.

In which case then, yeah, I kind of think you'll probably be on equal footing with a non-vegan and arguably better footing given that the clear preponderance of the research is that saturated fat is way worse for you than unsaturated fat.

And most people get most of their

Saturated fat from meat.

Vegans tend to eat less saturated fat unless you're just addicted to vegan replacements for non-vegan foods, which are generally going to be based on palm kernel oil or coconut oil, these naturally saturated fats. You don't want to hit that stuff too hard because it's just as bad for you as the butter. Potentially worse, according to some little bit of research. That's a topic for another day. But anyways, so yeah, I think you're in good footing. For me, I don't know, should we do this? Is this too dangerous to talk about veganism and ethics now? Lauren: Yes.

Adam: Well let's dip our toes into it very gently. Lauren: Okay. Because did he ask about ethics? Adam: No, but it obviously follows, right? Lauren: No. He's asking nutritionally and you answer nutritionally. Adam: Okay. Look, here's what I'm going to say. Here's what I'm going to say. Okay.

If you're going to be supplementing protein and you're a vegan, I would encourage you to maybe think about, even though you're a vegan drinking whey protein, some whey protein in addition to plant-based protein products that you might be hitting for a couple of reasons. One, whey is by far the most studied kind of protein supplement. And so we kind of don't know how good pea protein is compared to whey because I mean there is some research, but not a ton. Secondly, if you're a vegan, more in terms of thinking about it in terms of sustainability rather than animal welfare, I don't know, because there's no research here on this at all. But I would suspect that whey is more sustainable than plant-based protein supplements because the whey is going to exist whether they sell it to you or not, because the whey is the byproduct of what industry? Lauren: Dairy. Adam: Yes. The cheese industry, right? Lauren: I love them. Adam: And they are going to make cheese whether you buy their whey or not because she's going to eat it.

Lauren: But the carbon footprint of growing all the things that make peas to make pea protein or whatever it is, then-. Adam: Yeah, that's not-. Lauren: The water, the tractors, the, all of that. Adam: Yes. And as from what I can see looking at vegan protein powders, which I've done, I don't think many of them are, some of them are using some byproduct from other industries. But mostly it's like, that's stuff that they're growing specifically to make the protein powder. And no doubt its carbon footprint is much lower than the dairy industry's is. But the dairy industry is, they're going to make the cheese no matter what.

It's going to exist, whether they sell it to you as a muscle building supplement or not. And if they don't sell it to you as a muscle building supplement, they're going to sell it to the livestock industry to incorporate in animal feed, which is where I think most of that whey goes anyway. So, I would consider hitting the whey.

Certainly it's been the case that for

Me, because remember when i used to gym it way more seriously than i even do now.

And what would I eat? Lauren: Gym chicken.

Adam: Gym chicken. Yes. Lauren: This was like way, this was 15 years ago.

Adam: Yeah. This is back when we had no responsibilities and I went to the gym all the time and I looked way better than I do now. Lauren: Disagree. Adam: Oh, thank you, honey. So I would do what the bodybuilders all do, which is buy tons and tons of cheap chicken and just, or fish and just cook up giant messes of disgusting animal protein. And I was a one man chicken death squad. Lauren: Oh, God. Adam: And that's with me being natural, not taking any steroids or anything like that.

I think about a professional bodybuilder. How many on steroids and how many chickens has Big Ramy killed in his life? Right? Wow. Lauren: So many chicken houses worth. Adam: So many, yes. Full chicken houses. Lauren: You see those chicken trucks on the interstate? Many, many chicken trucks. Adam: And we eat meat. I see, no for me, fatal moral flaw in eating some animals.

Lauren: I'm just pointing out the irony. Adam: Well this is why I try to emphasize all the time that this is why I transparently defer to expertise all the time. And people-. Lauren: Of course, of course. Adam: Always, people criticize me as saying it's an appeals to authority fallacy. But that's not true. It's just what it boils down to is that if you are a leading scientific thinker on this topic, this is what you studied in school, you are at the top of this field and it is your learned opinion that actually meat isn't as bad for the environment as soy or whatever, then you have earned that opinion.

But if you haven't, then you have

No logical reason to believe that one outsider, outlier, scientific opinion over and above the clear consensus of other scientists who say, "no, that guy is dumb.

He's looking at the data wrong. Everything that we know tells us that, in fact, meat is way worse than soy for the environment.". Lauren: And really it's the one authority fallacy, we pay attention to the preponderance of authority, the singular authority-. Adam: Wow. Lauren: Is not it. Adam: Is that an actual logical fallacy that you learned about in school? Or did you just make that up? Lauren: I just said it. Adam: Dang. Well, we're not going to top that.

Adam: If you want to send an email saying, "Hey, we love Lauren. Keep her in the show.". Lauren: Yes. Bring it! Adam: You can do that. Lauren: Loads of affirmation. Adam: But if you want to say the opposite, don't say anything. Lauren: Keep it to yourself. Adam: Keep it to yourself.

Because here's the thing-. Lauren: If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all. Adam: Don't say it. Which is something that the internet has forgotten. But the other thing is that it's like, I'm going to know if you don't like it. So, you don't have to say anything. Lauren: Yeah. And we'll respond to that.

Adam: Yes. Lauren: I don't need to be here. It's fine. Adam: Yes. Perfectly fine. Okay. So thank you, honey. Lauren: Of course. Adam: We'll talk to you next time and make good choices...